tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post112733440767784806..comments2019-11-15T09:21:57.658-06:00Comments on Walking in the Spirit of Grace: SovereigntyGary Kirkhamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1139201006036937622006-02-05T22:43:00.000-06:002006-02-05T22:43:00.000-06:00Hello MA, thank you for dropping by. I have tried...Hello MA, thank you for dropping by. I have tried on several occasions to communicate to you a basic truth, but you have either failed to comprehend it or have failed to acknowledge it. Truth exists regardless or whether I can feel it, experience it, or see it. My acceptance of truth does not validate that truth and your rejection of truth does not invalidate that truth. Truth stands on its own. It requires nothing from us other than a choice…acceptance or rejection.<BR/><BR/>You specify two states for a person’s spiritual journey. Then you try to add a third state, which is not really a state at all. Why? Because states B and C are not mutually exclusive conditions. It comes down to where you place your faith; in what you accept and believe. You have chosen to place your faith in what you can see and reason for yourself. If your reasoning is faulty, then your faith is misplaced and the “C” you believe in will have to change to reflect your newest reasoned position.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you will try to tell me that the things that you have reasoned for yourself have never been proven wrong by yourself or by others. Good luck with that. Maybe you will be honest. The truth I have placed my faith in never changes and has never been proven wrong. My own human reasoning about that truth may convince me that the truth is a lie. My own human reasoning about that truth may convince me that there are many different truths and that it doesn’t really matter which one I choose. But does any of that change the truth? Absolutely not! The problem is not with the truth, the problem lies in human reasoning…yes, that thing that you place so much of your faith in.<BR/><BR/>I have chosen to place my faith in the truth, His name is Jesus Christ. He is the “C” that deserves the “B”<BR/><BR/><I>And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.” (Matthew 28:18)<BR/><BR/>And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:8-11)<BR/><BR/>That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (Romans 10:9,10)</I>Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1137705313409241822006-01-19T15:15:00.000-06:002006-01-19T15:15:00.000-06:00Jimmy and Gary,[dropped by to see if either had of...Jimmy and Gary,<BR/><BR/>[dropped by to see if either had offered a comment on my link ... nope, and not all that surprised]<BR/><BR/>...I'm at a loss as to what else to say. Both of you are continuing to offer the same argument - Here's how I'd phrase your words : "we KNOW we have found truth. We feel it, experience it, see it every day. Once you have that, you can't go back. You can't even imagine being wrong about it".<BR/><BR/>The single biggest point I'm trying to get you to acknowledge, and which you continually refuse to do so, is that this is NOT UNIQUE TO CHRISTIANITY. Do this, please - find a Scientologist. Sit with them, and listen to their tale of exprience, of euphoria, of the moment of revelation when they finally understanding the benefits that auditing brings.<BR/><BR/>Discuss with a Muslim the relationship they share with Allah. Try asking a Hindu about the peace and beauty of the Vedas.<BR/><BR/>In each of these humans, they speak of their personal knowledge of "the box". They have found it, it is real, it shapes their life. They cannot understand questioning of "the box". And they each feel that "the others" are mistaken. <BR/><BR/>You only experience this world through a single perspective, ever. Jimmy CAN NEVER experiecen Gary's "box", or vice versa. But they can talk,a nd agree that since their experiences of "the box" are so similar, that in fact they are the same experiences. The conclusion then follows that the are the same "box".<BR/><BR/>I see shared experiences everywhere. I don't doubt your experience, your personal 'knowledge' of "the box", the influece you feel "the box" has on your life. I think we all have a "box". Even athiests have a version of "the box" as well.<BR/><BR/>Where does all this lead? 3 points :<BR/><BR/>1. The "experience" is real, and shared, amongst all mankind - we all sense and work within "the box" (some better than otehrs, orf course!).<BR/><BR/>2. The "box" is a different shape and colour for so many people.<BR/><BR/>3. Since you can only ever 'see' the colour and shape of your own "box", you cannot (easily) imagine another other "box".<BR/><BR/>You guys are stuck at #3.<BR/><BR/>[jimmy wrote:] "Your desire that Gary and I "put aside our conclusion" is never going to happen"<BR/><BR/>Yes, you're probably right. That's the nature of these conversations. The 'believer' cannot imagine what lies beyond the box. It's a pity, because althought he box gives you boundaries, it limits your sight as well. There's more to see thatn you realise. And only this life to see it in.<BR/><BR/>[jimmy wrote:] "Rather, the kind that knows that I was once exactly where you are,"<BR/><BR/>Oh, I doubt it. It's the presumption of all believers to assume that "everyone else" is missing out, and lacking, and desparately searching - even if denying that they are.<BR/><BR/>You think there are two states to the spirtual journey :<BR/><BR/>A. Looking/searching/feeling lost/trying..<BR/><BR/>B. Finding/accepting/believeing...<BR/><BR/>Most people - you guys included - stop at 'B'. Many people even bypass 'A', simply by never quesitoning their cultural heritage.<BR/><BR/>But there is a 'C', and it awaits those who have the courage to see the world, and their place in it, as it really is. 'C' takes a lot more work that you might think sometimes, but the rewards are there for the taking.<BR/><BR/>Humans are pack animals - most seek to follow, few seek to lead. Most find 'B' is the state that works best for them. A few push on to 'C'. Jimmy, I doubt you've ever been near 'C', and from your comments perhaps that's for the best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1137647091530203812006-01-18T23:04:00.000-06:002006-01-18T23:04:00.000-06:00Jimmy,Thanks for dropping by again and sharing you...Jimmy,<BR/>Thanks for dropping by again and sharing your thoughts. It has been a while since I have felt like writing anything because of the holidays and an illness. I will continue to pray for MA as well.<BR/><BR/>MA, once again you state that I have assumed a conclusion, so once again I must state that I have not done so. I have started with the truth and have done nothing more than to agree with the truth. The truth stands on its own. Truth can often be arrived at by logic, but it can never be invalidated by logic. You ask me to set aside my conclusion, but what you are really asking me is to set aside the truth. How hard would it be for you to set aside the truth? But then why would you want to?<BR/><BR/><I>So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8: 31, 32</I><BR/><BR/>There is freedom in the truth, freedom from the guilt of sin and the power of sin. That is what Jesus is offering you MA. I pray that you take Him up on His offer of forgiveness and eternal life. He is waiting patiently for you to come to Him. Turn your heart to Him and He will save you.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1137623644766731082006-01-18T16:34:00.000-06:002006-01-18T16:34:00.000-06:00Mr. Anonymous,You have no idea to what degree you ...Mr. Anonymous,<BR/>You have no idea to what degree you are right about your conclusion concerning the futility of having the kind of dialogue you desire. You mentioned a box, so let me try to illustrate with a box...Two men search for a box. One finds the box. The other wants to discuss where the box might be or even whether there is actually a box to find. He asks the finder of the box to pretend he does not have it so that they may discuss evidence that the box exists and how he knows what the box is like. To do this would be the most irrational act imaginable. Your desire that Gary and I "put aside our conclusion" is never going to happen --- because that conclusion is an experiencing and knowing of truth of such certainty that to lay it aside would be as irrational as having debates about the existence of a box, where it may be found, and what it is like...while all the time possessing the box being debated. Hey, no hard feelings. In fact, praying for you. No, not the holier than thou kind of praying. Rather, the kind that knows that I was once exactly where you are, that I did nothing to merit the peace and certainty of the truth that I now have in Christ, and that my heart's desire is that you come to know Him and that one day I meet you in eternity. God bless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1137539593207448282006-01-17T17:13:00.000-06:002006-01-17T17:13:00.000-06:00Gary/Jimmy,I could say so much more, but really yo...Gary/Jimmy,<BR/><BR/>I could say so much more, but really you've covered it all here :<BR/><BR/>"The questions you have asked here are really no different in relevancy than the ones asked in the example above. They only focus on things that are not central to your primary need…your need for a Savior."<BR/><BR/>Again, you simply assume the conclusion, then use the conclusion to justify the premise.<BR/><BR/>IF I need a savoiur you might ahve a point - but were' supposedly trying to see just how we know we need saving. That requires you to put aside, even just for the time it takes to have this conversation, for you to put aside your conclusion. You seem unable - or unwillingly - to do so. That kills the conversation right there, and has repeatly. If you're unable to step outside your box, even momentarily, then I'm afraid you probably can't even see the box!<BR/><BR/>If you're up for it, try a little reading :<BR/><BR/>http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45321Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1135369566717094692005-12-23T14:26:00.000-06:002005-12-23T14:26:00.000-06:00Hello Jimmy. Thank you for taking the time to dro...Hello Jimmy. Thank you for taking the time to drop by and share your thoughts. Feel free to come back anytime and write whatever the Lord puts on your heart.<BR/><BR/>MA, I believe that Jimmy is correct in his assertion that you really don’t want answers. You have you purpose for being here and I have mine. I have shared with you my purpose, which is to share the good news of Jesus Christ and what it means to live in His grace. That purpose is not served by entering into an endless debate with you or anyone else.<BR/><BR/>MA, you are like a man who has a condition, such as kidney disease, and you have been told that you must drive across town in order to receive treatment, in this case, dialysis. Without dialysis, you will die. Knowing that you don’t know the location of the dialysis clinic, those who prescribed the treatment give you detailed directions to the clinic. For whatever reason, you ignore the directions and, in return, ask questions such as, “Why are the street signs painted green?” or “Why are the curbs on Elm Street two inches taller than the curbs on Maple Avenue?” or “Why are the manhole covers round?”.<BR/><BR/>All of these questions have answers, but they are ancillary to your most important need. You need the treatment that will save your life and I, and others, have been trying to show you the way to get well. The questions you have asked here are really no different in relevancy than the ones asked in the example above. They only focus on things that are not central to your primary need…your need for a Savior.<BR/><BR/>Have a merry and safe Christmas and, at some point, try to think about the reason for this season, His name is Jesus Christ.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1135218910668667152005-12-21T20:35:00.000-06:002005-12-21T20:35:00.000-06:00Jimmy and Gary,"Gotta go...have a great Christmas"...Jimmy and Gary,<BR/><BR/>"Gotta go...have a great Christmas"<BR/><BR/>Thanks guys. May you and your families both have a great festive period. <BR/><BR/>I've tried various styles and approaches over the past months to try and tease responses from you, and to introduce concepts to you. It's been both fun and enlightening at times. It truly is fascinating probing the various flavours of American Christianity, something the web has made far more accessible.<BR/><BR/>Despite appeareances, we agree on far more than we disagree. Take comfort in the facts of our existence - we are alive, we are human. The solutions to the problems we face here and now lie within the resources available to us here and now. The knowledge of any 'truth' of what lies beyond your death is forever denied to you while you live, despite either presence or lack of faith.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps we'll resume this next year, perhaps not. I hope your god decides to grant you more time to explore this world - you add value IMHO! Look after those around you, and don't forget to think about things!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1135218333366381212005-12-21T20:25:00.000-06:002005-12-21T20:25:00.000-06:00jimmy,"You are mistaken to conclude that Gary has ...jimmy,<BR/><BR/>"You are mistaken to conclude that Gary has been unresponsive."<BR/><BR/>Then I'm afraid you must be using some other definition of 'responsive'.<BR/><BR/>"...simply the result of your being unable to understand someone with a worldview radically different from your own."<BR/><BR/>You're wrong, and your assumption is probably based on a failure by you to ask any relevant questions before launching into <BR/><BR/>I spend a lot of my time 'walking in other's shoes' in order to experience different worldviews. I find it particularly intriguing to watch christian worldviews collide, as each 'christian' explains why they are the 'real holders of truth.<BR/><BR/>"I find you unresponsive as well"<BR/><BR/>Please point to a question you've asked that I've failed to respond to. I'll correct the ommission.<BR/><BR/>"You simply have a different worldview and absolutely cannot understand a perspective that you do not have now and have never had."<BR/><BR/>Imagine my surprise that you are playing the "true scotsman" card at this point.<BR/><BR/>"The difference is, Gary and myself once lived life from your rationalistic worldview."<BR/><BR/>You still do. If I tried to convince you I could fly, you'd use reason to counter my arguments.<BR/><BR/>Your premise is that rationality has limits. You add a further aasumption that 'truth' lives outside these limits. When we start to talk about how you define these limits, which parts of life and knowledge live on which side of the line, you stop discussing and retreat to the position that "thre's a limit, you know". This limit is apparently clear, yet undefined. WHen I prod you to the limit, the converstin dies. I find this significant, even if you find it uncomfortable.<BR/><BR/>"So we can understand where you're coming from... at least enough to know that we could never fill in enough blanks to satsify you."<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Only God's Spirit can convince you of spiritual truths."<BR/><BR/>Define 'Spiritual truths'.<BR/><BR/>"Yes, there are many very prominent authors, etc. who have come to faith in Christ who first set out to attack the faith because they held a different worldview. They did eventually have to humble themselves and come by simple faith in Christ, but God did seem to use reasonable answers to their questions as a first step along the road to them taking that step."<BR/><BR/>There are also many such people who have set out to challenge but ultimately come to a belief in Allah. Of course, you'd rather believe that 'humble' people find the real turth in your version of god, and anyone who finds some other 'truth' simply isn't 'humble' enough.<BR/><BR/>"However, with you, the worldview problem is complicated by the fact that I don't sense you really have any desire to know the truth."<BR/><BR/>Jimmy, I hope you are/were a better teacher than you are <BR/><BR/>"Thus, my hesitation to enter into the time it would take to answer your questions"<BR/><BR/>Well we agree here - I find very little time being spent by you or Gary in the answer you offer.<BR/><BR/>"(I do find it IRONIC that what you seem to think are "gotcha questions" are actually not very challenging)"<BR/><BR/>I'll pass on any further discussion of irony, and simply restate that just repeatedly telling me "these questions are easy" is far less enlightening that actually GIVING AN ANSWER.<BR/><BR/>This is the third time you'd declared that each and every question I've asked is simnple to address - and the third time you've failed to address any of the questions at all.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I should take a moment to add that reason cannot defeat faith - we both know this. Faith is a concept held either without supporting evidence, or in contradiction to evidence. Therefore, it's immune by definition to reason.<BR/><BR/>"For now, I'd like to get out of the way so that you and Gary can go forward without my interruptions."<BR/><BR/>Fine. If you're not actually going to offer anything more detailed that than "it all makes sense to you once you stop thinking about it" then I guess we're both better off ny you dropping out.<BR/><BR/>"You were right in turning attention back to Gary's original post."<BR/><BR/>Call it a mistaken belief that you (or Gary) might actually finally address the questions.<BR/><BR/>"If I am mistaken and you are open to finding the truth even if it would totally decimate your current worldview,"<BR/><BR/>*sigh* - my world view is tolerant of change. It's changed more than once. You need to understand that "finding the truth" does not mean "Agreeing with Jimmy" - think you can manage that?<BR/><BR/>Could you be wrong Jimmy? Could it be that Christ is a construction of men, not gods? Any chance of that being true? If the answer is "No - no chance at all" then in what way does this inner conviction that you feel differ from a Morman's conviction?<BR/><BR/>Can you explain the difference?<BR/><BR/>"I would consider a dialogue on a forum that would not distract from Gary's blog."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps, although I doubt you'd consider 'neutral ground'. Have anything in mind?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1135201786525683822005-12-21T15:49:00.000-06:002005-12-21T15:49:00.000-06:00Mr. Anonymous,You are mistaken to conclude that Ga...Mr. Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>You are mistaken to conclude that Gary has been unresponsive. What you have interpreted as being unresponsive is simply the result of your being unable to understand someone with a worldview radically different from your own. I find you unresponsive as well, but I must remember that you may not be so intentionally. You simply have a different worldview and absolutely cannot understand a perspective that you do not have now and have never had. The difference is, Gary and myself once lived life from your rationalistic worldview. So we can understand where you're coming from... at least enough to know that we could never fill in enough blanks to satsify you. Only God's Spirit can convince you of spiritual truths. Yes, there are many very prominent authors, etc. who have come to faith in Christ who first set out to attack the faith because they held a different worldview. They did eventually have to humble themselves and come by simple faith in Christ, but God did seem to use reasonable answers to their questions as a first step along the road to them taking that step. However, with you, the worldview problem is complicated by the fact that I don't sense you really have any desire to know the truth. Thus, my hesitation to enter into the time it would take to answer your questions (I do find it IRONIC that what you seem to think are "gotcha questions" are actually not very challenging) and contribute to your diversion from the central issue (and you know what that is). For now, I'd like to get out of the way so that you and Gary can go forward without my interruptions. You were right in turning attention back to Gary's original post. If I am mistaken and you are open to finding the truth even if it would totally decimate your current worldview, I would consider a dialogue on a forum that would not distract from Gary's blog. Gotta go...have a great ChristmasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1135112384492710712005-12-20T14:59:00.000-06:002005-12-20T14:59:00.000-06:00jimmy,[More to say, but have to be quick]"Your res...jimmy,<BR/><BR/>[More to say, but have to be quick]<BR/><BR/>"Your responses to Gary and myself often come back to the argument that since other views exist and believe themselves to be true, then our belief in Christ being the truth is somehow invalidated."<BR/><BR/>That is not the argument. I seem to be failing to be clear. <BR/><BR/>"If there is truth, how can the argument that since many people hold many opposing views prove that they are all equally wrong?"<BR/><BR/>Again, not what I mean. I'll try to restate the issue better ... will on this post when I get more time.<BR/><BR/>"So, the central issue always is and always will be this: Will you submit to God through Jesus Christ on His terms?"<BR/><BR/>See, I can't even agree on this ... what does "on His Terms" mean? There are over 34,000 different sects of christianity ... the largest, Catholicism, has recently offered the premise that salvation "may" be available to those who do not know Christ. Would you agree to this? If you and the Catholic church cannot agree on what "His Terms" are, then what are you submitting to?<BR/><BR/>Why would god require 'submission' anyway? What moral purpose is served by threatening retribution until 'submission'?<BR/><BR/>And since you're being more responsive, care to try and connect the dots between Gary's opening post in this thread, and the question "why can't the bible be a work of Satan?"<BR/><BR/>[By the way, I'm still troubled by the irony debate! There's something unsatisfying about the definition that we've applied. It may be incogruent for the heavily favored Colts to lose to the 49ers for example, but it doesn't feel ironic. Incongruency seems insufficient for irony. Perhaps irony is proof of christian salvation - they both seem equally resistant to precise definition).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1135011229402170182005-12-19T10:53:00.000-06:002005-12-19T10:53:00.000-06:00Mr. Anonymous,Thanks for your reply. Yes, you are...Mr. Anonymous,<BR/>Thanks for your reply. Yes, you are correct. A large part of my point is that reason will never take you where only revelation can. Your responses to Gary and myself often come back to the argument that since other views exist and believe themselves to be true, then our belief in Christ being the truth is somehow invalidated. Do you see the weakness of that argument? Bottom line question: Do you believe there is truth? It appears that you do not. If there is truth, how can the argument that since many people hold many opposing views prove that they are all equally wrong? As I said, you did nail a large part of what I am saying in my statement about revelation taking you where reason cannot. Please don't miss the related part. It has to do with your response to the claim of Jesus Christ on your life. He is the truth. He can be your Truth. When you do come to Him by faith, you will know truths about the spiritual world with as much certainty as your reason allows you to know truths in the physical world. So, the central issue always is and always will be this: Will you submit to God through Jesus Christ on His terms? It is, at its root, a question of authority and submission. Will you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1134708396368459852005-12-15T22:46:00.000-06:002005-12-15T22:46:00.000-06:00Jimmy,"Mr. Anonymous, I am very tempted to be draw...Jimmy,<BR/><BR/>"Mr. Anonymous, I am very tempted to be drawn into your relentless strategy of diversion...<BR/><BR/>How ironic that you level an accusation of 'diversion' at me in the midst of Gary's constant refusal to enter into a discussion ... oh, never mind.<BR/><BR/>".. to point out that, yes, that is "irony""<BR/><BR/>Hmmm ... perhaps you're right. Let me look at it again.<BR/><BR/>"(I am about 100% confident of this as a former English/Literature teacher)."<BR/><BR/>Appeal to authority noted (Relevence of auhority noted also!)<BR/><BR/>"I will, though, resist."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I should resist too. But best way to learn is to listen to others ... so lets see.<BR/><BR/>A trip to the American Heritage Dictionary offers the following (editing to reduce it to the relevant parts) -<BR/><BR/>Irony : <BR/><BR/>1a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. <BR/><BR/>1b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. <BR/><BR/>1c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. <BR/><BR/>2a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs<BR/><BR/>2b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity.<BR/><BR/>Now, hopefully we can can agree that none of (a), (b) or (c) of the first definition readily applies. So you're obviously going for definition 2 - that my (alleged) use of illogical reasoning to accuse others of illogical reasoning is an "incongruity". <BR/><BR/>If a third person was to watch a discussion, and note that I'm attemping to question someone's 'logic' but I do so by using an illogical process, then would they percieve this as 'incongruent'? <BR/><BR/>Yes, I think you're right! My apologies, that is indeed a form of irony.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I deny that is what I was doing (and hopefully explained why previously). But I (now) agree it would be ironic if I did so!<BR/><BR/>But you asked a more relevent question (or two ) :<BR/><BR/>"You have spent much time trying to pick apart the methods of Gary and others while continuing to try to avoid the central issue."<BR/><BR/>Not surprisingly, I disagree. <BR/><BR/>"You quoted the first, but please consider all 3,..."<BR/><BR/>I consider the second and third to be largely irrelevant (ha!), but since you ask;<BR/><BR/>1. "The correct response to this realization is humility that results in faith."<BR/><BR/>Humility = good. Reasonable faith = necessary. Unreasoned faith = bad. Do I need to explain why?<BR/><BR/>2. "Reason will never take you where revelation has taken those who you are attacking."<BR/><BR/>Define 'revelation'. Please explain how two men can experience 'truth through revelation', yet each knows the other is completely and utterly wrong?<BR/><BR/>3. "May the Spirit of God illuminate the truth of the Word of God so that you might see Jesus Christ as He really is."<BR/><BR/>This has no meaning that I can discern - it's essentially a unsupported argument containing numerous undefined concepts. Perhaps more importantly, it's essentially nothing more than a personal expectation (better yet, a 'wish') that you need to be true. You need this sentence to be true so much that you fear to question it's validity. Its an axiom you've chosen for yourself. Fair enough, we all rest our worldviews on one foundation or other. Hopefully it's been clear that my questions here are attempts to have people examine their axioms.<BR/><BR/>"The truth is, there is not one question that you have asked Gary, others or myself that cannot be easily and reasonably answered." <BR/><BR/>Well, I'd find this asssertion more believeable if someone made an effort to actually provide these "easy answers", rather than just repeatedly tell me 'sure they exist'.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the central point I'm getting from you is probably best captured in this quote :<BR/><BR/>"But reason will never take you where only revelation can."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'll understand you a little better (or perhaps you'll udnerstand me?) if you could explain why that sentence of yours has more 'truth' that any of these :<BR/><BR/>1. "But reason will never take you where only Allah can."<BR/><BR/>2. "But reason will never take you where only schizophrenia can."<BR/><BR/>3. "But reason will never take you where only gurnifstication can."<BR/><BR/>Care to tackle that one?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1134665457584095892005-12-15T10:50:00.000-06:002005-12-15T10:50:00.000-06:00Mr. Anonymous, I am very tempted to be drawn into...Mr. Anonymous, I am very tempted to be drawn into your relentless strategy of diversion to point out that, yes, that is "irony" (I am about 100% confident of this as a former English/Literature teacher). I will, though, resist. I notice that you chose a number of my comments to respond to and question, but I find it interesting that you didn't respond to my conclusion. You have spent much time trying to pick apart the methods of Gary and others while continuing to try to avoid the central issue. The 3 sentences pasted below are the last 3 sentences of my comment to you and all 3 are vital. You quoted the first, but please consider all 3, especially the 2nd and 3rd. Thanks! Here are the closing 3 sentences:<BR/><BR/>"The correct response to this realization is humility that results in faith. Reason will never take you where revelation has taken those who you are attacking. May the Spirit of God illuminate the truth of the Word of God so that you might see Jesus Christ as He really is."<BR/><BR/>You will no doubt feel I have ignored your questions about my post. That's okay. We will never reason ourselves to agreement. The truth is, there is not one question that you have asked Gary, others or myself that cannot be easily and reasonably answered. But reason will never take you where only revelation can. That is why, although it is very tempting, believers will not be drawn into chasing and explaining diversionary questions. We choose not to be a part of contributing to your moving away from the central issue of your need for Christ. Only God can convince you of this. So, I choose to stay with those 3 sentences and leave you, for today, with them and the drawing and convicting power of the Spirit of God. Praying God's best for you. JimmyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1133479072551842942005-12-01T17:17:00.000-06:002005-12-01T17:17:00.000-06:00I like that. I'm syndicating your feed, because I...I like that. I'm syndicating your feed, because I think that you must be a fellow gracehead!GraceHeadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16511471036658708352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1133398084895458562005-11-30T18:48:00.000-06:002005-11-30T18:48:00.000-06:00Jimmy,thanks for joining in ... perhaps you'll mak...Jimmy,<BR/><BR/>thanks for joining in ... perhaps you'll make more of an effort to respond that Gary does.<BR/><BR/>A couple of quick points. You say :<BR/><BR/>"If a class of 30 students give 30 different answers to a test question does that lead us to conclude that none of the answers are correct. That is one of dozens of ridiculous leaps of logic which you have made."<BR/><BR/>No, you misunderstand. We don't conclude that ALL 30 are wrong. But we know immediately that AT LEAST 29 are wrong. So we have to try and determine which one, IF ANY, is correct. So we look at the process by which the answer has been arrived at by each student. And we discover that all 30 have used exactly the same process! But they go further - each of the 30 claims that their answer is correct BECAUSE the method they used cannot fail. <BR/><BR/>See now why "scripture" and "faith" cannot be relied upon as the keystones of truth? In your exsmple, at least 29 people have tried to do this and have failed. I'm suggesting that perhaps you, the 30th to try the same approach, have also failed. You believe that you haven't failed, that you have found the answer. Same claim as the other 29.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't that worry you even a little?<BR/><BR/>"The irony is your inability to see your own irrationality in the midst of pointing out what you see as illogical in Gary and the others."<BR/><BR/>That's not irony anyway, but it's also not what I'm doing. Just trying to point out that your personal conviction of truth is not more reliable that the other 29 - which you agree with me are incorrect.<BR/><BR/>Hey, both of us think 29 are wrong - I just happen to add one more to the wrong list than you do!<BR/><BR/>"And get this, it's not just you. Gary, the others, and myself are all prone to the same kind of pride-filled judgements and blindness. These ridiculous debates only reveal our insufficiency and God's total sufficiency." <BR/><BR/>*sigh* - you make judgements, big and small, all day every day. It's what separates you from animals. It's the very core of what you call 'free will'. The NEED to make judgemenst is clear. It's the WAY you make judgements that matters. <BR/><BR/>You are called all the time to determine, via whatever method you choose, to make judgements on what the scriptures truly tell us. The fact that you choose to label some of these judgements "so obvious there's no need to question it" (such as, for example, the existence of Jesus), and to label others as "prideful" is simply assuming your conclusion.<BR/> <BR/>"The correct response to this realization is humility that results in faith."<BR/><BR/>Humility is a nice trait - America could use a little more of it now and then. Faith - without reason - however is the realm of the fundamentalist, and we all know what they are capable of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1132935754026781362005-11-25T10:22:00.000-06:002005-11-25T10:22:00.000-06:00Gary, Anonymous & others,I'm new to this blog alth...Gary, Anonymous & others,<BR/>I'm new to this blog although I have followed the the dialogue between Gary & Anonymous to some extent. Anonymous, bottom line is, God loves you in Christ and calls on you to respond to His invitation. Obcession with Mary, the immaculate conception, Heaven and whatever other issues the spirit in you compells you to chase will never change the bottom line, core issue. God has loved you in Christ and calls you to Himself. Nothing will ever change that issue. We are people and don't define the central subject of our lives. God does. The absurdity of our supposed wisdom is revealed when we make arguments like yours that since there are so many different interpretations of the Christian faith that none of them can be true. If a class of 30 students give 30 different answers to a test question does that lead us to conclude that none of the answers are correct. That is one of dozens of ridiculous leaps of logic which you have made. The irony is your inability to see your own irrationality in the midst of pointing out what you see as illogical in Gary and the others. And get this, it's not just you. Gary, the others, and myself are all prone to the same kind of pride-filled judgements and blindness. These ridiculous debates only reveal our insufficiency and God's total sufficiency. The correct response to this realization is humility that results in faith. Reason will never take you where revelation has taken those who you are attacking. May the Spirit of God illuminate the truth of the Word of God so that you might see Jesus Christ as He really is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1132181589863959692005-11-16T16:53:00.000-06:002005-11-16T16:53:00.000-06:00Nice way to avoid everything I said Gary!How about...Nice way to avoid everything I said Gary!<BR/><BR/>How about anseering the quesitons I raised, since I spent the time to answer yours.<BR/><BR/>Let me repeat it :<BR/><BR/>(you said) "Do you really believe that a sovereign God would allow Satan to alter His word or allow Satan to attribute to God something that he has written?"<BR/><BR/>( I ask ) Any idea why I've been asking this particular question? Think about how it might relate to your opening post.<BR/><BR/>Care to try and answer this?<BR/><BR/>"The fact that you make this statement shows that you have no concept of what it means to be a Christian."<BR/><BR/>It seems the only way you can address anything I say is by assuming I'm an atheist who "doesn't get it". I guess that's why it's so weasy for you to dismisis taht 1 billoin Catholics as "not really christians" - they don't get it either, do they!<BR/><BR/>"MA, you need a savior."<BR/><BR/>Oh, but which one! So many to chose... Allah preserve us!<BR/><BR/>"You can believe the distortions of scripture perpetrated by unstable men under the influence of Satan."<BR/><BR/>Can you offer any reason at all for why the bible CANNOT be a creation of satan?<BR/><BR/>"But it can only end with your own eternal destruction."<BR/><BR/>Physically, yes. We agree. Now about the soul - you know, that thing you can't define, measure or experience in any way...<BR/><BR/>"MA, you were conceived in sin and in your sins you will die."<BR/>I was conceived in lust ... is that your point? <BR/><BR/>Sorry, but I have children, and they are not born tainted. They, and we, will make our mistakes and pay our dues, but the slate starts clean. Care to address any of teh 4 points I raised as to why this is so?<BR/><BR/>"If you will only turn your heart toward Jesus, and trust Him as your Lord and Savior, He will make you know wisdom deep inside your heart."<BR/><BR/>Gee ... now where have I heard this before. Oh wait, now I remember - the last time I spoke with a Mormon! He "knew wisdom in his heart". Of course, he also knew that the Book of Mormon was true scripture. Explain why your truth beats his?<BR/><BR/>About Paul ...<BR/><BR/>"Why would I want to leave Paul out of anything?"<BR/><BR/>It's call a 'thought experiment'. You take a hypothetical situation, think about what it tells you about something, then reappraise the original.<BR/><BR/>It doesn;t bother you at all the it is only something written after the death of Jesus that introduces the central concept of your faith? For some reason god thought it a 'good idea' to have Jesus forget to mention Original Sin in any shape or form?<BR/><BR/>Of course you are right - god may have decided, for purposes known only to him, to make Paul the messenger for this most vital of all christian concepts. Seems an odd way of doing things, but then your god has never been a model of consistency or reason. Kind of convenient to just say 'he works in mysterious ways' whenever it starts getting a little illogical (speaking of illogical - care to try and explain the trinity?). But then you seem to ahve no problem in decalring that (a) you can clearly see at least some of the details of god's plan and (b) you admit your finite comprehension cannot understand an infinite god. (nice word game there again by the way - 'infinite' is a mathematical concept, not a theological one. But hey, you often seem willing to apply 'appropriate' meanings to words to make the context work).<BR/><BR/>Let's try another tack, since you seem unwilling to move away from scripture in any answer you give. When good christians die, they will ... what? What is heaven? What does scripture tell us about what awaits the righteous? Got any idea what heaven actually is?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1132109817830728602005-11-15T20:56:00.000-06:002005-11-15T20:56:00.000-06:00MA,I did want to say one more thing. Why would I ...MA,<BR/><BR/>I did want to say one more thing. Why would I want to leave Paul out of anything? His writings are just as true as that of any other of the writers of the Bible. They, as a whole, are the revealed Word of the Living God. God chose to reveal Himself at different times to different people. He revealed Himself through the prophets and in the fullness of time He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ. He continued to reveal Himself through the inspired writings of the Apostles. Each of those pieces fit together to make the whole. Each is revealed at the proper time to serve the purposes of God.<BR/><BR/>Paul seems to be a popular Apostle to pick on. It is probably because His writings are so difficult to understand, especially to observant Jews and people who have a lot of pride (but, I repeat myself). Listen to what the Apostle Peter had to say about Paul:<BR/><BR/><I>Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:14-16</I><BR/><BR/>It doesn't seem that Peter had too much problem with any of Paul's teachings. But, again, all of this stuff is just a smoke screen which avoids the real issue.<BR/><BR/>MA, you need a savior. You can believe the distortions of scripture perpetrated by unstable men under the influence of Satan. But it can only end with your own eternal destruction. Consider what David wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, and in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom. Psalm 51:5-6</I><BR/><BR/>MA, you were conceived in sin and in your sins you will die. If you will only turn your heart toward Jesus, and trust Him as your Lord and Savior, He will make you know wisdom deep inside your heart.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1132103478404225542005-11-15T19:11:00.000-06:002005-11-15T19:11:00.000-06:00Hello MA,I am not sure where you think we are gett...Hello MA,<BR/>I am not sure where you think we are getting, but it will be interesting to see.<BR/><BR/><I>Born and raised a christian.</I><BR/><BR/>The fact that you make this statement shows that you have no concept of what it means to be a Christian. Until we can nail this down, then whatever else we discuss is of little consequence. So, please tell me about yourself...give my your testimony. Please tell me when and how you became a Christian and how it affected your life.<BR/><BR/><I>correct 'state'.</I><BR/><BR/>Meaning what? Once again you are showing some serious misconceptions about what it means to be a Christian.<BR/><BR/>I am trying to help you with all of these misconceptions you have, but you continue to try and cloud the issue with arguments that amount to nothing.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1132099893583350492005-11-15T18:11:00.000-06:002005-11-15T18:11:00.000-06:00Gary,[Now we finally get somewhere!]"Do you really...Gary,<BR/><BR/>[Now we finally get somewhere!]<BR/><BR/>"Do you really believe that a sovereign God would allow Satan to alter His word or allow Satan to attribute to God something that he has written?"<BR/><BR/>At last you answer the question - thanks! Any idea why I've been asking this particular question? Think about how it might relate to your opening post.<BR/><BR/>I'll leave it with you before I add more - can you connect the two topics (your 'sovereignty' post and the satan/bible question)?<BR/><BR/>"No, Satan’s attack is much more subtle than that."<BR/><BR/>But this is simply an assumption on your behalf. Only hindsight reveals the depths.<BR/><BR/>"MA, God is not a God of confusion. He is willing to speak to you directly."<BR/><BR/>Nope. Born and raised a christian. Been there, done that, God chooses silence obviously in some cases.<BR/><BR/>Quite simple really, only a few alternatives :<BR/><BR/>1. If god speaks to you, then you have truly reached the correct 'state' as defined by god and layed out in his 'word'<BR/><BR/>-OR-<BR/><BR/>2. If god speaks to you, it is actually your own kmind creating the feelings in response to your desires.<BR/><BR/>And :<BR/><BR/>3. If god refuses to speak to you, you have not yet truly reached the correct 'state'.<BR/><BR/>4. If god refuses to speak to you. he doesn't exist.<BR/><BR/>Now, the thing to note Gary is that "god speaks to you", variously phrased at times in words like "feeling god's presence" or "being moved by god" - this is a common feature of religious people of all sects! Yet none agree on what constitutes the 'correct state'. So #1 and #3 can only be true for ONE religion, yet are claimed by each in turn. On the other ahnd, #2 and #4 are compatible with ALL religions. Which explanation better fits the facts of the world as experienced by 6 billion humans?<BR/><BR/>Now, you asked a question :<BR/><BR/>"What do these verses mean to you MA?"<BR/><BR/>(Romans 5:6-10) - Key words here 'died' and 'justified'. I'll deal with this as part of looking at your second quote.<BR/><BR/>(1 Peter 3:18) - This is meaningless gibberish once you peel back the 'feel good' intent and study the words themselves. It could just as easily have said 'For Christ also painted his house blue once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God…'. <BR/><BR/>There are four problems here - the first (and least) is what action exactly did Christ take? <BR/><BR/>The second is how do you transfer a moral obligation? <BR/><BR/>The third is is there a debt anyway? <BR/><BR/>The fourth(and biggest) is where lies the moral obligation?<BR/><BR/>Lets look at the first. We've already discussed that the use of the word 'died' is a deceit - that the meaning of this collection of letters is different in this context that when applied to 'normal humans'.<BR/><BR/>Let's assume you wish to 'die' in place of your child who has committed some terrible crime and is to be punished. You offer yourself instead. You 'die', but do so in the knowledge that you will be successfully revived 3 days later. This is not 'death' as faced by humans. Christ did NOT die a human death, despite the use of the word. The sacrifice is a shallow gesture. Now without the resurrection you might have a case. But you don't. But I imagine you'll continue to misuse the word 'died' because it's what you want the system to be like...<BR/><BR/>The second issue - transference of moral obligation. If you incurr a moral debt through your own free actions, how can that debt be moved to another? Can they 'choose' to take your debt without you permission? Can you force your debt onto them without their permission? Even if both of you agree, can your moral debt ever truly be moved to another? If moral consequences ARE transferable, then in what sense do they ever really belong to you? Are you just 'minding' them until later? If they truly are a aspect of your own self, then how can they be moved to another?<BR/><BR/>The third issue - Is there even a debt to transfer. As discussed before, it's abundantly clear that Adam and Eve cannot have commited a immoral act, since they were created without knowledge of good and evil. Morality doesn't exist in such a state, therefore there was no crime worth punishing. <BR/><BR/>This is essentially why the early chritian writers created the concept of "Original Sin" - it's a 'special type' of sin that is genetically transferable, and can be created in a moral vaccumn. The fact that neither of these 'attributes' makes any sense is ignored simply because the concept is necessary to drive the resulting theology. Classic 'cart before the horse' stuff (same philosophy drives the "Trinity" - we can get onto that if you like eventually).<BR/><BR/>Can you show me the part of the bible that mentions the phrase "Original Sin"? How about the writings of the 4 Gospels -the most relevant of all the words attributed to god via Jesus? Any idea which book introduces the concept of a genetic 'taint' on humanity? <BR/><BR/>Got a quote from Genesis where god mentions the genetic taint?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, you wouldn't want to be relying on 'traditional writings' to derive this concept would you? Surely the clear and unchanging word of god would UNAMIGUOUSLY identify the central point of all humanity's existence - to decide via free will our own individual reaction to Original Sin.<BR/><BR/>Can you point out where in the old testament or the gospels there is a mention of this taint? Leave Paul out of it - build a case for Original Sin without reference to Paul. Not as an implied concept, but as a central aspect of the theology. Hard, isn't it! Now, ask yourself why the entire bible is NOT riddled though and through with this fundamental aspect of god's relationship with man? One answer might be ... because it was added by a later writer - perhaps to resolve potential ambiguities in the underlying theology?<BR/><BR/>Finally, the fourth issue - who's debt would it be anyway? God created Adam, the world, Sin and Satan. Any debt created by the behaviour of man cannot be absolved from god.<BR/><BR/>You create a sandpit in your backyard. You place a 2 year child in that sand pit, and a yound kitten. You watch from a distance. The child digs a hole and buries the kitten, killing it. The moral debt is yours, not the child. Simply arguing that the "child had free will - it could have acted differently if it chose to" is invalid. Any debt incurred by Adam and Eve is god's moral debt, not humanities. With great power comes great resonsibility Peter Parker!<BR/><BR/>"They mean exactly what they say. There is no need to read any more into them than that."<BR/><BR/>Well, we disagree. They mean whatever YOU want them to mean, since you provide the interpretive, contextual, meanings for so many of the words.<BR/><BR/>"Like I suggested to you before, read the Gospel of John and see where it leads you."<BR/><BR/>Have read the entire bible, including some of the books that failed to 'make the cut', and including those removed by Luther - can you say the same Gary? You rail against 'tradition', and yet it is simply 'tradition' that defines the bible itself.<BR/><BR/>"Be prepared for a wonderful ride into the heart of God."<BR/><BR/>Try reading the Quran, or the Book of Morman, or the Bhagavad Vita. Adds a vastly new perspective - which I think you'd enjoy! And leads to a wonderful ride into the heart of the gods of man. And if you find the courage to walk the distance, it leads to a wonderful realisation of the creativity of humanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1131998261179963772005-11-14T13:57:00.000-06:002005-11-14T13:57:00.000-06:00Hello MA,You may be right; I have probably been le...Hello MA,<BR/><BR/>You may be right; I have probably been less than civil in some of my posts. It is probably due to frustration arising from my inability to communicate to you concepts, which, to me, are so simple. Another thing that probably affected my tone was my perception or interpretation of your tone. You are right, I can give as good as I get. For that, I apologize. The Holy Spirit convicted me over the weekend that here lately, in my correspondence with you, I haven’t been walking in the Spirit.<BR/><BR/>Why did Jesus die for our sins? You want this in my own words. What you fail to understand is that my words only have value to the extent that they reflect or express the truth. So, what is the truth? I can’t express it better than the Apostles Paul and Peter. Why don’t you read this…no, don’t just skim it. Try to read it with the desire to understand it. It is very simple and clear. You don’t need anyone to interpret it for you, it speaks for itself.<BR/><BR/><I>For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:6-10)<BR/><BR/>For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God… (1 Peter 3:18)</I><BR/><BR/>What do these verses mean to you MA? Tell me in your own words. They mean exactly what they say. There is no need to read any more into them than that.<BR/><BR/>I have already covered some of this before, but man cannot truly know about God except through divine revelation. It is not possible for the finite human mind to understand the nature of the infinite God. Therefore, it was necessary that God reveal Himself to us through divinely inspired writings, and that He protect and guard them from any attempt to change even one word or one letter. It is certain that God's Word abides forever, as the prophet had said long ago: "Forever, O Lord, your word is settled in heaven" (Psalm 119:89). And the New Testament declares that "The word of God ... lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23).<BR/><BR/>Do you really believe that a sovereign God would allow Satan to alter His word or allow Satan to attribute to God something that he has written? No, Satan’s attack is much more subtle than that. He operates by inspiring confusion and misinterpretation of the Word of God. He did so in the Garden of Eden:<BR/><BR/><I>Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:1-5)</I><BR/><BR/>That is what Satan is doing to you MA. He seems to be confusing you. He has you convinced that you can somehow divine everything you need to know about God and Christianity by observing the world around you. You see Christians with different beliefs about the same lines of scripture and Satan leads you to make the assumption that the problem lies in the fact that there is no God. You are looking for God in the wrong place. Sadly, you can’t look at many people that profess to be Christians and see God in their behavior. There are some who profess to be Christians who are not really Christians. There are others who are Christians who are not walking in the Spirit, which means that they are not allowing God to guide their thoughts and actions. <BR/><BR/>Too many Christians place too much trust and emphasis on their traditions and have hardly any consideration for the Spirit of God which lives in them. So you can see how someone who is not being guided by God, but by Satan, can decide that something is from God and influence people, through church tradition, for many generations. Traditions die hard. Can you think of a church where tradition carries equal, if not more, weight with the Word of God? <BR/><BR/>You have labeled me as a Baptist several times and to a certain extent you are correct, but it might surprise you to know that there are several things that I differ on from your average Baptist. Why? Because the Holy Spirit has convinced me in my heart that what I believed before was not accurate and that I only believed those things because of tradition. This change in heart only came when I was willing break with tradition and to let the Word of God speak to me directly; not what I read in a book or what someone behind a pulpit was telling me. <BR/><BR/>MA, God is not a God of confusion. He is willing to speak to you directly. Set aside what you believe, set aside observations of disagreeing Christians, set aside the lies that Satan has told you, and read the Bible. Say this prayer as you read, “God, if you really do exist then reveal yourself to me as I read this book.” Like I suggested to you before, read the Gospel of John and see where it leads you. Be prepared for a wonderful ride into the heart of God.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1131937870933295322005-11-13T21:11:00.000-06:002005-11-13T21:11:00.000-06:00"Perhaps you need to look up the word censorship i..."Perhaps you need to look up the word censorship in the dictionary. .... You only have what I allow you to have."<BR/><BR/>And that's not a threat of censorship? Word games I guess.<BR/><BR/>"Maybe you would like to reconsider the last paragraph of your post in light of this little jewel:"<BR/><BR/>No need to reconsider. My initial comment referred to the lack of depth of your opening post. It in no way inferred that you lacked a physical ability to think - just that you clearly choose NOT to think too deep. <BR/><BR/>(I've asked you to expand on : )"Jesus died for our sins mean"<BR/><BR/>"once again you are asking me a question I have already answered. ... but on my own terms as indicated in my previous post."<BR/><BR/>Well, this is tiring and futile. THe current conversatoin amousnt to :<BR/><BR/>me : "Gary, answer this in your own words".<BR/><BR/>You : "No, I won't. I'll reprint to you what others have said - you see if you can figure out what it might mean"<BR/><BR/>me : "But I'm trying to understand what YOU think it means"<BR/><BR/>you : "Well I refuse to answer. Read what others have said."<BR/><BR/>"Think! Closer, Deeper, Longer"<BR/><BR/>Then give me something to think about - give me YOUR answer, not the 'offical party line'.<BR/><BR/>"I will continue to "recycle" scriptures,"<BR/><BR/>Sure beats answering in any depth, doesn't it!<BR/><BR/>"... because God's word is the word of life, eternal, flawless and pure."<BR/><BR/>Would this be the Hebrew words as spoken by Jesus and translated into Greek by the authors of the gospel? You speak Ancient Hebrew or Greek, Gary?<BR/><BR/>"God's word is true and is settled forever."<BR/><BR/>Except, of course, the meaning of 'settled' in this sentence is completely contrary to any sensible, normal use.<BR/><BR/>You mean, of course, that god's word is 'settled' in that it has these clear attributes : (a) beyond the comprehension of mortal man in it's details, (b) open to interpretation and reinterpretation by anyone who reads it, and (c) is currently disputed by over 34,000 separate organisations who all proclaim it 'clear and settled'.<BR/><BR/>Give me one argument as to why it is impossible for the bible to be a work of Satan, created to deceive humanity? <BR/><BR/>Can you explain how to remove a moral debt Gary? Not a physical or legal debt, but a moral one?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1131673074977330502005-11-10T19:37:00.000-06:002005-11-10T19:37:00.000-06:00Hello MA,If I was truly censoring your post, then ...Hello MA,<BR/><BR/>If I was truly censoring your post, then I would not have reposted it. Perhaps you need to look up the word censorship in the dictionary. It was not a threat, I was simply countering your claims that you have free reign in my house. You only have what I allow you to have.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you would like to reconsider the last paragraph of your post in light of this little jewel:<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>The shallowness of some of your posts is ... well, amazing would be a polite term. The depth of your theology is somewhere up there on the Brittany Spears scal of lyrical content.<BR/><BR/>But then I guess staying away from "the depths" is necesary when you have no capacity to deal with reality on it's own terms.</I><BR/><BR/>????????????????????<BR/><BR/><I>Ok - here's an easy one (ha!) for you. What does "Jesus died for our sins mean"</I><BR/><BR/>MA, once again you are asking me a question I have already answered. Read the "sermon" again. I have answered quite a few of your questions, but on my own terms as indicated in my previous post.<BR/><BR/>Think! Closer, Deeper, Longer<BR/><BR/><BR/>I will continue to "recycle" scriptures, because God's word is the word of life, eternal, flawless and pure. God's word is true and is settled forever. I guess that you will have to get used to it.Gary Kirkhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12870342469118915243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1131664217181366902005-11-10T17:10:00.000-06:002005-11-10T17:10:00.000-06:00Dear Public Internet Forum Reader,Thank you for yo...Dear Public Internet Forum Reader,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your insightful contributions to the discussion. I'm sure your willingness to ignore ALL topics and focus on the irrelevant subject of identity contributes greatly to everyone's understanding of the issues.<BR/><BR/>"Anonymous, Your unwillingness to reveal yourself is getting old."<BR/><BR/>Well, it ain't going to change just 'cos you're tired of it. <BR/><BR/>"What are you afraid of?"<BR/><BR/>What makes you think fear is the motive?<BR/><BR/>"Why do you have to hide?"<BR/><BR/>Why do you call it hiding? What is the meaning of 'identity' anyway? <BR/><BR/>"Do you make the rules up as you go to accomodate your fear of being found out?"<BR/><BR/>Nice attempt at projection, but hey, I'll pass on the crappy attempt at psychology.<BR/><BR/>"The interest now isn't in the conversation you are having it is in the fact that you have been called out to reveal yourself?"<BR/><BR/>Then I suggest anyone who finds the "interest" to lie in my identity had best stop reading, 'cos they're going to get bored. Hopefully there are others who might like to hear Gary address some of the questions.<BR/><BR/>"Readers will Mr.A reveal himself?"<BR/><BR/>Nope.<BR/><BR/>"Does Mr.A have what it takes to converse with someone who knows who he or she is.."<BR/><BR/>Yes he/she does. But context has relevence in most things in life, so your assumption falls flat.<BR/><BR/>" or will Mr.A stay hidden in darkness?"<BR/><BR/>Well, as the Prince of Darkness I don't like light ... oops! Nearly gave myself away then!<BR/><BR/>"Stay tuned."<BR/><BR/>I'd suggest we need Gary to come to the party and start really talking before this can get interesting. Care to share Gary?<BR/><BR/>"Public Internet Forum Reader"<BR/><BR/>I could make some comment here about identity and ... well, why bother really. This isn't all that subtle a point...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11753631.post-1131663449884036582005-11-10T16:57:00.000-06:002005-11-10T16:57:00.000-06:00"This is indeed my house and I do get to decide wh..."This is indeed my house and I do get to decide what goes on in my house."<BR/><BR/>Censorship Gary???? I'm shocked! But why should I be ... your use of a free public service to push an agenda is a common theme in many christian movements - and to retreat behind the walls of censorship when challenged. I suspect this is an empty threat by you, but hey, you've surprised me before.<BR/><BR/>I just hope you treat your kids a little gentler when you're challenged by their 'tone' in years to come.<BR/><BR/>Seems that when you ask for comments you mean "from those who say what I want them to say".<BR/><BR/>"I really do hate to disappoint you, but I will continue to respond to your posts in this manner."<BR/><BR/>Well, I'm disappointed then, you're correct. I had hoped to entice some thought from you, but you seem content to hide behind quotes.<BR/><BR/>'Gray Kirkham's recycled Scripture'.<BR/><BR/>"My purpose here isn't to have an argument, it is to share Jesus."<BR/><BR/>My purpose here is to ask you to understand the assumptions behind your belief, and see the dangers that lurk there. To reveal the myth that this Jesus figure is.<BR/><BR/>"It is also a place for people to have civil discussions about things I have written in my blog."<BR/><BR/>Then discuss things! Hell, stop hiding behind scripture and put - in your own words - some answers to the questions you've been asked.<BR/><BR/>"The more you study the Bible, the more you find out that everything in the Bible points to Jesus and what He did on the cross."<BR/><BR/>Ok - here's an easy one (ha!) for you. What does "Jesus died for our sins mean" Gary? To you. In your own words. Would it surprise you to learn that christian theologians are not in agreement on the exact meaning of this? But give me your version of what you think it means.<BR/><BR/>"I have also taken the same approach in my writing, especially in my "conversation" with you. Perhaps your keen intellect has picked up on that fact."<BR/><BR/>The sarcasm you inject at times (a) undermines your whole 'tone' argument totally - perhaps you've missed the fact that you give as good as you get? - and (b) it misses the point. I have never claimed "superior intelligence" - go back a reread the posts. I ask, now and always, for you to use your intelligence, to think, to reason. I'm not saying "I'm smarter than you. You are not smart enough to figure this out". I'm saying "think closer, deeper, longer about the dark corners - it's scary at first, but rewarding in the end". I'm challenging you to use the intellect you have, not accusing you of having an inferior intellect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com