Saturday, June 28, 2008

The Past is Forgotten

Anyone who belongs to Christ is a new person. The past is forgotten, and everything is new.

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

When you were dead in your sins, you were not set free from the sinful things of the world. But God forgave your sins and gave you new life through Christ. We had broken the Law many ways. Those sins were held against us by the Law. That Law had writings which said we were sinners. But now He has destroyed that writing by nailing it to the cross.

I, even I, am He Who blots out and cancels your transgressions, for My own sake, and I WILL NOT REMEMBER YOUR SINS.


Taken from 2 Corinthians 5, Romans 8, Colossians 2, Isaiah 43
Emphasis Mine

12 comments:

Judah Himango said...

"But now he has destroyed that writing..."

Eh, what exactly are you saying, Gary, that Messiah destroyed the Torah? I mean, it sure sounds like that's what you're saying. Is it?

I know you're taking a bit from Colossians 2 and piecing it together according to your understanding, but I propose Paul is not saying that Messiah has destroyed the Torah.

Matthew Daelon said...

If He didn't abolish the Law of Commandments, and you are still under them in the least, then how are you going to be made righteous before God who has the power to cast both soul and body into hell? The Law is contrary to us as sinners and can only condemn us, and rightly so.

The Torah isn't for you, it's against you as one guilty of disobedience. Unless you claim to be without sin? I don't understand how anyone can have faith in Christ Jesus and say they're still under the Law. You make faith null and the promise void in doing so.

Gary Kirkham said...

Judah,

I was quoting the Bible, so in that sense it wasn't ME who was saying anything.

In Christ,
Gary

Matthew Daelon said...

Judah, I just wanted to add that I'm not against the Law, but the Law was against me and condemned me. So the only thing I could do was ask God "Is there another way!?" Thankfully He made another Way!

Jesus said Himself:

"What king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he has able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be My disciple."

And again: "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, (the Torah) on whom you have set your hope".

I don't say these things just to be a jerk, but to give you rest in Jesus. I know trying to live by the Law is miserable. You constantly feel unworthy and like you're not doing enough. I know what it is to try to live like that.

Judah Himango said...

@Matthew,

You said, "If He didn't abolish the Law..." Do you believe he abolished it?

Gary, I know you took part of that from Scripture. Do you believe Messiah destroyed the Torah?

I'm asking because I want to understand where you guys stand on the issue.

Matthew Daelon said...

Hey again, Judah.

It's not me who says it, it's the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul to the Ephesian Church. I read the English Standard Version and it says: "For He Himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two (Jew and Gentile).

So did Jesus just abolish the Law? No He didn't. He fulfilled it!! Thats part of the Greatest News anyone has ever heard.

Read Matthew: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

See what He says? Did He say the Law isn't good? Did He say He was just going to throw it out? Absolutely not. God is not unjust. In order for the Law to be taken out of the way, He Himself had to fulfill it. Notice the word "until". That is saying it WILL happen, but not until He has fulfilled it.

He goes onto the say that whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments (speaking of the commandments He is about to preach in the sermon on the mount) will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. So tell me, you who desire to be under the Law, do you not listen to the Law?

What do you think Jesus meant when He said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out?

Gary Kirkham said...

Judah,

I didn't take part of it from scripture; I took ALL of it from scripture. It is verbatim from the version of the Bible I copied it from. I added the boldface and uppercase emphasis.

Judging from the "righteous indignation" you expressed on your blog, you need to step back and take a deep breath and re-read the OP and look at the way the verses fit together to see the point I was trying to make. Or maybe you did see it, but chose to make it about something else.

Judah, ask yourself a question...you don't have to answer it here. As a believer in Messiah, does God deal with me on the basis of sin or on the basis of righteousness? If you say that God is still dealing with you on the basis of your sin, then I have bad news for you; you are still under a curse. If you say that God is dealing with you on the basis of righteousness, then what is the source of that righteousness? You or God?

I assume that that you will answer God's righteousness. Do you believe you have been declared righteous Judah? Do you think that God has only given you a little righteousness or complete righteousness? Do you believe that all of your sins have been forgiven or is there still some lurking from 1998 that you have forgotten about? The Bible says that ANYTHING that is not of faith is sin. How many times during the day do you think that you lack faith? I am sure that it is more than you know. Are those sins forgiven? Does God still count your sins against you Judah? Why? If your answer to that question depends upon YOU in any way, then you are still under a curse.

What is the purpose of the Law?

I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

The Law served that purpose in my life and pointed me to Jesus who became SIN on my behalf so that I might become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him. Therefore, I have been transformed from death into life through faith in Jesus and God is no longer dealing with me on the basis of sin, He is now dealing with me on the basis of righteousness. What then is the purpose of the Law in my life now? To show me a sin that God has forgotten?

On another note, I don't really mind you linking to my posts if you want to have civil debate and discussion. If your only reason for doing it is to slam me or my friends (idolatrous?), then I would appreciate it if you didn't bother linking to my blog.

In Christ,
Gary

Judah Himango said...

@Matthew,

I asked if you believe Messiah abolished Torah, and you responded,

"It's not me who says it [that the Torah is abolished], it's the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul to the Ephesian Church."

But then you say, "So did Jesus just abolish the Law? No He didn't."

Now I am confused. Can you explain what you mean in the first paragraph?

Judah Himango said...

@Gary,

My understanding of your post is that God doesn't remember your sins.

Is that an accurate understanding?

While that message is good, I had to ask whether you believed Messiah abolished the Torah, because I get mixed signals from you guys about that.

Here's a literal translation from the Greek of our Scripture in question:

"And you -- being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh -- He made alive together with him,

having forgiven you all the trespasses,

having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us that was contrary to us,

having taken it out of the way,

having nailed it to the cross,

having stripped the principalities and the authorities,

he made a shew of them openly -- having triumphed over them in it."


That's a big leap to "Jesus destroyed all the commandments in the Old Testament"! I interpret it as sin being nailed to the cross, abolished. Not God's commandments!

Gary, I didn't call you idolatrous on my blog. I'm sorry that I offended you and that I wasn't clear on the matter. I said, "It's no wonder the Jewish people look at Christianity as a foreign, idolatrous religion."

And I mean that! It's no wonder! Here we are saying that Jesus destroyed everything Jews hold dear. We're saying Jesus destroyed God's commandments by nailing them to the cross and making a public spectacle of them. Isn't that what's being implied here?

I do believe this Abolition Theology is anti-Judaic and not from Messiah. Yes, it's that important. That is why I have asked you guys to clarify where you stand on the issue.

Gary, you asked me several questions. I want to answer them in a respectful way. Perhaps we can answer 1 at a time? (Posts get too long otherwise.)

Let me answer one of your questions here. You asked a chain of questions,

"As a believer in Messiah, does God deal with me on the basis of sin or on the basis of righteousness? If you say that God is still dealing with you on the basis of your sin, then I have bad news for you; you are still under a curse. If you say that God is dealing with you on the basis of righteousness, then what is the source of that righteousness? You or God?

I assume that that you will answer God's righteousness. Do you believe you have been declared righteous Judah? Do you think that God has only given you a little righteousness or complete righteousness? Do you believe that all of your sins have been forgiven or is there still some lurking from 1998 that you have forgotten about?"


Gary, let me jump right down to the crux: I'm made righteous by God, not by my own works or my own following of the Torah. And I believe I've been forgiven of all the ugly things I've done and repented for.

I keep the Torah because it's God's loving instructions for His children.

I keep Torah because it's obedience to God.

I keep Torah because the disciples did so.

I keep Torah because Messiah did so.

I keep Torah because Paul did so.

I keep Torah because the ones we call "Fathers" of our faith -- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David -- did so. (Yes, God's instruction existed before Sinai!)

Torah: God's loving instruction to his children. It tells us how to live our lives while on earth, in the physical. What to do in the physical. It's very hands-on. :-)

I keep Torah because Messiah said to keep it.

I keep Torah because there is blessings in being obedient to God's word!

I keep Torah because Messiah said the one that does so will be considered great in malchut Elohim, the Kingdom of God.

I keep the Torah because the Psalmist said it's a joy and a delight!

I keep the Torah because the Psalmist said the one who keeps his commandments is blessed, will flourish in God, will prosper in God's righteousness.

I keep the Torah because John says that rebelling against the Torah is sin.

I keep the Torah because it is the fruit of my works that shows where my spirit is at with God.

I keep the Torah because Paul says the Torah defines what sin is; without it, we wouldn't know that coveting, for instance, is a sin.

I keep Torah because the apostles in Acts 15 said even new gentile believers ought to keep some of the Torah (even some dietary laws!).

I keep the Torah because it's an explicit, written form of the Spirit. It agrees with God's spirit, the Word is not against the Spirit.

Messiah's fulfillment of Torah does not grant us a rebellion license against Torah. I hope you guys agree with that. I suspect you do, but I tell you that dismissing Torah as irrelevant, as no purpose for your life, as ended by Messiah, is a form of rebellion against God's commandments.

Bino Manjasseril said...

Great discussion guys!
Hey Judah, If you don't mind, how would you interpret 2 Corinthians 3?

The words such as

"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"

"the ministry that brought death"

"its glory, fading though it was"

"the ministry that condemns men"

"what was glorious has no glory now"

"what was fading away"

"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read"

"Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts."

I am not looking for an argument, but at the same time I am curious how do you (based on your understanding of New Covenant) interpret this chapter?

Matthew Daelon said...

Judah,

I meant that Jesus didn't just come to take away the Law. He fulfilled the Law for us and also condemned our sin in His flesh. So, in a sense, the Law is abolished toward us. We have no more connection to it. We are dead to it. If we did have any connection to it whatsoever, we could not come alive to God . The Law itself will always be. He didn't kill the Law, He killed us in Himself.

It's really simple. We can't be under Law and Grace. That makes no sense. "I'm under merited favor and unmerited favor" or "I'm the righteousness of God and the righteousness of my self".

Gary Kirkham said...

Judah,

I don't really want to play word games. You say you didn't call me idolatrous, but I AM a Christian and you did write this:

"It's no wonder the Jewish people look at Christianity as a foreign, idolatrous religion."

Since you are a Jew and you state that you are in agreement, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist (I happen to be one) to do the math. On top of that I am an "anti-Semite."

Idolatry is a very serious charge to make against someone and I don't take the charge or make the charge lightly. We can have a discussion and I might be mistaken and you might be mistaken and Matthew might be mistaken, but we will never work through those differences by elevating the discussion to the religious equivalent of "reductio ad Hitlerum."

If you or anyone who frequents your blog wishes to come here and have a civil discussion, then the door is open…especially if they want to discuss the intended subject of the OP. If you want to go over to your blog and make charges of idolatry and anti-Semitism, then I suspect you will be disappointed not to find me over there trying to defend myself. I can't speak for the others that come here, but I doubt you will find them coming there to defend themselves either.

In Christ,
Gary